What is it Crimmins?? Should everyone just take your word? I thought you guys over at CPS did things by the book, always by the book. Hence, not letting Barbara's other children see Merrianne on the rare visit, because they weren't "approved." I'm sure that was a life-threatening issue.

The paper says exactly what CPS intends to do -- strip Barbara Jessop of her parental rights because of a photograph that could be fake for all we know.

"Although the report states that a petition to terminate Jessop's parental rights has been filed, Crimmins said the report was mistaken, and that family reunification remains CPS' goal in the case."

------------

They want it both ways, don't they? Grab the child permanently while saying the exact opposite. Just what you'd expect from CPS with its culture of lying.

Why doesnt this woman just follow the dang rules!

tell us all why a woman who approved of her recently-turned -12 yr old kid "marrying" a 50 yr old man with dozens of other concubines (and some children already about 30) should not have her "parental involvement" watched and possibly terminated. Barabara Jessop abbetted numerous childbride arrangements and is the alpha wife of a large harem. this kid's father will probabaly never be seen again, by the way. He is as bad a freak as Warren. Had a few teen "wives" just a few yrs older than this "poor" brat and he is over 70. Barbara and Merrill Jessop are freak/thugs, a national shame to all, religious or non-religious.They need to be put away for good. The whole flds is a stinking, lame disgrace to the US.

Culture of lying? Read up on the flds. You'll get your culture of lying fix for the day. flds wants everything both ways- they pick which US laws to obey and which to ignore. They have been notorious and disgusting hypocrites for decades, circumventing every kind of law they can, bleeding our welfare provisions in several states, lying to protect their "holy" rapists and many flds have gone missing. There are numerous unexplained deaths and disappearances with them. Keep on defending them- I think you will eventually be sorry you did, if you ever bother to read up on their ways. They are a stench and a shame.

I wish they would do that buckshot, but chances are they wont. But, they may discontinue her visits with her daughter and the phone calls.

flds are accustomed to ignoring rules whenever they can. They do not think for themselves. Everything has to come down from their prophet..they have been taught to basically see him as God since birth, whoever leads at whatever point in the group.They will dump kids and money whenever he says to. You'd retch if you knew all they believe. If our laws were enforced with this bunch, just about every single one of em over 18 would have to do some serious time.

BIG NEWS IN SAN ANGELO: AN FLDS MEMBER CAUGHT BREAKING CPS AND BARBARA WALTHERS RULES. ABUSE! ABUSE!

We've got them this time guys! Maybe they didn't abuse her before, but now they are CPS law breakers. They must be punished for this!

Ignoring rules.....CPS released 291 children and their parents from oversight because they broke no laws.
CPS has been slapped by SCOTEX and the US 5th circuit for breaking "rules".
As investigation has been promised by Meisner to look into the breaking of "rules" by CPS at the holding facilities.
Just who flaunts the "rules".......cps attorneys asked for a do over in providing "evidence" to defense lawyers.
Get real.

Approving and encouraging a 12 year old child to become the next in a long line of concubines, to a 50 something year old man, is good enough reason to permanently terminate all parental rights.

If the girl has a chance to explore other options for her life, until she is 18, she may or may not decide to go back to her owner then, many do. But at least it will be an informed decision.

"The whole flds is a stinking, lame disgrace to the US."

Hatemongering pure and simple. Some of these comments remind one of Jewish blood libels

duaneh1
Yes, your right FLDS are hatemongering people. They follow a dictator warren jeffs, and they beleive anyone other than THEM (pure race) are damned.
And heaven forbid if you are a black person, your evil and of Satan. Yes, what a wonderful way to teach FLDS children. Heil Jeffs!!

The report also details odd requests from Jessop that included offering to "trade" one of her other daughters for the girl in custody, so that the other girl would be placed in foster care instead.

This is just SICK! How long do you think Merrianne would be in Texas if Barbara Jessop Traded another child for Merrianne?

Oh Merrill, where are you? You are supposed to give DNA! You proclaimed yourself Leader of the Ranch Merrill, its time to be accountable!

Post rules:

# Be truthful. Don't lie about anyone or anything. Exposing untruthful things is not what comments are about.
# Be nice. No racism, sexism or any other sort of -ism that degrades another person.

Hannah must be the author of this article, or someone special to the writer because of her spewing forth about FLDS with no facts involved, just reiterating all the lies of Flora and Carolyn, and her comments are not censored. I would also guess Hanah is a black woman since she seems to have a burr in her saddle about the FLDS quoting what God says in the Bible about the black people.

Hope you have friends Hanah, I don't imagine you're very easy to live with with such a hateful attitude.

arkay,

What goes around comes around; pot meet kettle. You accuse Hannah but your stance is not all that different, just replace her use of FLDS with CPS, the results are surprising.

Religion and the use of religion to preach what we now call racial hatred has been around for years Hannah.
The book that Jeffs uses to justify his teachings is the same book used by LDS before 1978. The Bible is used by many denominations to seperate the races even today.
Every one of Jeffs teachings have a biblical reference and aren't as uncommon as many believe.
Get's us back to religion again now doesn't it?
Jeffs didn't dream this stuff up Hannah. The next time you go to a church made up of one race just ask yourself what neighborhood you are in or just how you fit in.
BTW.....have you heard Obama's former pastor speak on the evils of the white race........it works both ways.

After Ike devasted coastal TX and countless families seperated, you would think that the CPS has better things to do rather than persecute someone making 25 unsupervised calls to her daughter after constituionally pleading the fifth.

You can't convince me or anyother impartial observer than this is nothing but religous persecution. Persecution which will come back and bite the state of Texas.

DK

>>>They do not think for themselves.<<<<
I can think of many religons like this, such as Southern Baptists for example.

>>>>Everything has to come down from their prophet..they have been taught to basically see him as God since birth, whoever leads at whatever point in the group.<<<<<
You kinda make it sound like the Pope. By your definition the Catholics are the next in line for the CPS treatment.

>>>>>You'd retch if you knew all they believe. <<<<<
Personally, I retch reading all you claim you believe. Show us unequivicable proof of what you say gretchen.

>>>>>If our laws were enforced with this bunch, just about every single one of em over 18 would have to do some serious time.<<<<
Not all of them? I'm sure if it were up to you and the CPS, you surely can trample on some more civil rights and plant evidence so that all of those you hate will do time.

And why not? Let's leave all those "christian" drug users, drug dealers, prostitutes, alone and concentrate on people whose religion is different than Southern Baptist.

As I keep repeating myself. IF you have proof bring it on and prosecute those that are not already in prison. IF you don't have proof all you have is innuendo and rumors, and I'm sure the Southern Baptist do not like rumor-mongering.

The hatred displayed on this group against a religion is more than disgusting it is reprehensible. YOU do not have the right to condemn everyone who believes and worships differently then you do if they do not break the law. NOT EVEN if they only associated with someone that has broken the law.

AS Christ has said, let those without sin cast the first stone.

Not a particular sin, but any sin.

I do not have that particular advantage and I am in awe of those that do.

DK

OK KD....back to he concubine business again I see. Word for the week concubine. I guess escape has been worn out as well as other bookpeddler phrases.
Why not forbid the girl from having her religious books.......oh wait the state has already has done that.
Why not monitor phone calls of the girl....do a little eaves droping and gather more evidence.....oh darn we are late for that idea too.
How can the State know of 21 phone calls without halting the previous 20...how can Doran have an informant reporting rape for four years and not stop the alleged rapes on day one.
The foster jailers are doing a poor job of limiting phone access but hey.....isn't limiting phone access exactly what Carolyn accused the flds of doing.

Arkay,
Maybe you should inform your other members of FLDS to start telling the truth.

zxcvbm, I dont give a Hoot about religion. But I do know religion isnt protected if you break the law.
And we all know its okay for Barbara Jessop to want to "trade" her daughter for another child in cps foster home? LOL NOT!
But then again we know how sensitive Barbara Jessop was videotaping her daughter in hysterics, without so much as a hug for her, to be distributed to the world. If she cared so much, why did she marry her OFF at 12yrs old. Thats not religion, thats Abuse!

Try to get all the deails right Hannah......don't add anything.....and if you must speculate try it like this.
Yep..Barbara may have offered a swap but noone knows the circumstances behind the offer. Perhaps the other daughters made the suggestion to save the girl from more heartache....none of us know all the facts all we know is the sentence released from CPS.........a sentence has no detail only the end result of actions that CPS wants to draw attention to.

There are witnesses that described a goodbye hug between the Mother and Daughter off camera......and who cares anyway. How much does a mother have to cry before her tears are dismissed as fake or how much does a mother have to hold in her emotions before she is accused of being heartless.
As far as religion goes.......CPS did not break down the doors of a drug den it was a church. CPS did not take away comic books or porn mags they took away bibles.....they are accused of "spiritual unions" a church sanctioned affair not a civil marraige sanctioned by the state.

RELIGION oozes from every pore of this fiasco.
Those people pray to an unstate sanctioned god......pure and simple.

Really a church? Where is it registered as such zxcvbmn?
Do you really think if Merrianne went back to her mother , she would be in Texas next month? I don't.
Your right they didn't break down the doors of drug den, they broke down the doors of child sex ring.

Who cares where Merrianne goes...her church is in Texas and she is as welcome to stay there as in any other state......free country right.
The church was incorporated in 1942 and again in 48.....besides just where is the official office for church registration...is it next to the CPS office?
One more time Hannah.....that big white building that can be seen for miles is a church. It isn't hidden or painted to blend in with the landscape.
But I guess with churches today setting up shop in abandoned shopping malls and football stadiums it is easy to be confused.
Try this quote on for a real zinger..........whereso ever two meet in my name.......you can fill in the blanks of the author and what he was talking about.

Sorry that the FLDS don't fit your idea of a church though.......but they really don't need to.

con•cu•bine
1. Law A woman who cohabits with a man without being legally married to him.
2. In certain societies, such as imperial China, a woman contracted to a man as a secondary wife, often having few legal rights and low social status.

You don’t have to like it but that’s exactly what these women and girls are.
And if they want to “publicly claim to be married” in the state of Texas then they are breaking the bigamy law. Period. End of story. Notice the period?

Texans have a right to pass laws that protect women and children. Again I suggest contacting your representatives to ask for legislation making the keeping of concubines in Texas illegal.

>>>>1. Law A woman who cohabits with a man without being legally married to him.<<<<

>>>> I suggest contacting your representatives to ask for legislation making the keeping of concubines in Texas illegal.<<<<<

YEAH!!!! Let's go back to the morality of the fifties.

Let's collect all those babies born out of wedlock and lock-up the fathers. Let's have the unwed mothers ostrasized. And for all you people shacking up together, watch out or the CPS gestapo will break-down your door too.

Now remind me, how long has it been since Texas stated you couldn't marry your first cousin? Once again. You can't pass a law to seperate one section of society, it is against federal law and the ACLU will pay another visit. I thought that TX has learned that lesson with Larwence V. Texas. With that decision, Rick Santorom stated: "If the Supreme Court says you have the right to consensual sex within your home," Santorum said at the time, "then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right
to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to
anything. (May 8, 2008)"

Now you're right about Imperial China and their concubines, on the other hand, being a concubine was big business and a status symbol in France (Gigi anyone?), but this is the good-ol US of A and we're allowed to live with anyone we want married or not. Just as it is the right of of tele-evangilists to turn God into a terrorist by saying that if the parishers don't come-up with $500,0000 God will take the minister.

Oh, and claiming to be publically married in the state of Texas doesn't hold-up to scrutiny. I don't know of any buracracy or law that publically claiming anything wihtout the proper paperwork would hold-up. In other words, unless there is a paper trail, it can't be bigamy. Period. Do you notice the period?

So kd, lighten up, try to view the big picture instead of the myoptic view you seem to have.

DK

Hate to break it to ya KD but there are millions of people in this country that cohabitate without being married. No problem and not against the law. Many even enjoy the arrangement.
Since your choice of concubine and references to the use of the word as related to china you only prove the point that buzz words are used to stir emotions....water boarding and escape sell books as well.
The bigamy law crafted to catch the FLDS won't pass muster with a little help from the US Supreme Court.
Scalia has already suggested that several States rethink bigamy and polygamy laws because they infringe on the new consent ruleings.
You see...this is the 21st century where women are not property and can now consent to sleeping with whomever they please with or without their husbands consent. If a spouse doesn't like it they get a divorce.
Golly Gee KD....isn't that what women have always wanted.......not to be treated as property.
If the women don't like the guy she leaves.....Carolyn did it.....Flora did it .......Elisa did it..........but darn.....none of the women at YFZ have done it without threats from CPS.

Look out for KD there DK........she will nail you for your spelling of myopic.....if she gets real upset.
You see KD is a big bad former newspaper woman that spent a few years rideing around with Flora listening to her tall tales......perhaps she even edited Floras book.
Concubine will be the next Nancy Grace buzzword if my prediction is correct.....we will see when Floras book hits the shelf.
How many women will be screaming at their husbands or boyfriends allegeing they are treated like CONCUBINES in a few months.
Lets try this ....a concubine escaped last week by rideing a water board to safety......darn....I ment surfboard.

Hi Folks,

I don't live in Texas, and I am neither Mormon nor a member of FLDS, so here is a little perspective: CPS is continuing to waste the money of Texas taxpayers. CPS apparently forgot that Warren Jeffs in is jail and not likely to be getting out anytime soon. Therefore, why does this teenager need to be protected from him?? What happened in the past was morally wrong in my opinion, but that time is long since over. This girl currently needs her mother and her family, just like all kids her age. CPS continues to do more harm than good and they ought to be stopped. These kids will bear the scares of CPS' actions for all their lives. THAT'S wrong too!!

Headline: compound raided in child abuse case
FBI, state police raid headquarters in southwest Arkansas

"Federal and state police raided an evangelist's compound in Arkansas late Saturday to investigate whether any children have been
physically or sexually abused, officials said.

The raid is part of a two-year investigation into a compound near Texarkana, Arkansas, owned by Tony Alamo Christian Ministries, said
Bill Sadler of the Arkansas State Police. About 100 agents were on the 10- to 15-acre site late Saturday and met with no resistance, he
said."

Here is the hannah's and kd's chance to show if they harbor the same feelings towards Tony Alamo as they do against the FLDS.

What say you?

DK

Oh and thanks for the warning Z, I'll have to begin to spell check.

Matt,
What you need to realize is the Barbara and Merril have shown a consistent pattern of disrespecting the laws in place to protect children from underaged marriages. Even though Warren Jeffs is in jail is doesn't mean that Marianne is safe in her home. All it takes is for the Jessops to decide that Jeffs isn't the prophet, or for Jeffs to declare that Marianne really needs to be married to someone else, or any number of other possibilities that could send Marriane straight off to a marriage bed. Jeffs has had at least two of his underaged brides give birth while STILL underaged, which puts the claims of a chaste "betrothal" type marriage to rest. It is not a waste of money to protect this child. If nothing else, she is getting the chance to learn how truly strong and capable she is, even if Mommy isn't there to sing her awake in the morning. I feel sorry for her discomfort right now -- I've been in foster care myself and even though my foster parents were kind and decent people, it wasn't home. Truthfully, though, I wish the state had kept me there instead of sending me home to an abusive father. Marianne will be fine. The state is under an enormous amount of scruitiny where the FLDS children are concerned and no one would get away with harming or mistreating her. In fact, they're bending over backwards, it seems, to make her as comfortable as possible with the gardening and cooking.

you ought to check into what the flds believes about themselves and teaches its little ones. you might have your eyes opened as to who is teaching and preaching racism and hatred- the flds is one of the worst groups in that category that has ever been on the news. They teach that anyone that does not have pure white bloodlines, or that has ever interacted with anyone not white, is damned. All the ways they dress and do their hair, etc has to do with keeping from being damned themselves. Every day they teach their little kids that EVERYONE except they themselves are damned, for more reasons than I feel like showing you right now. Their biggest thing, however, is that polygamy is the only way to please God. Therefore, every day they teach their little ones to be unbending felons., since the US and state governments are subservient to their prohet's declarations.He has declared many times to them in sermons and recordings that all they have is his, his word is above all other law, etc. They still worship him, since they believe all he has been accused of is false and therefore they continue to teach those little kids to worship a pedophile. Spend thousands of hours reading up on them as I have . You will stop accusing their critics of hate at some point, I do believe. They have MANY unaccounted for people, many improperly documented births and deaths, incest, etc etc.
Every day their kids are taught polygamy is right and good, abuse is not abuse, and the stuff those kids are being "taught" in ther "school" will continue to leave them stunted and completely out of touch with reality. They are US citizens.

Look we all know you guys are FLDS apologists.

I have said repeatedly that the second definition of concubine is the one which should carry legal penalties.

I have always included the first definition so no one could say I was excluding the definition. I don't think anyone has problems with two people who want to shack up. What we do have problems with is a man keeping a harem of women and producing more children than he can support.

If I’ve heard it once I've heard it a dozen times from you people that nobody at the YFZ was on public assistance. Of course they weren't. They are the cream of Jeff's hand picked crop. It will take another fifty to100 years before you start to see the results of this "lifestyle choice" in Texas like we do up here in Arizona and Utah.

Arizona and Utah are corrupt beyond repair as far as these people go. But it is not too late for Texas to stop them from dooming generations of Texas women to the same fate.

Women aren't leaving that compound, yet, because they don't have to endure the same things their counterparts in Arizona and Utah do, yet. Personally I’m not willing to give you another fifty years to prove my point; not on Texas women and children. I’ve already seen enough.

The UN knows polygamy is dangerous for women and children and so does the U.S. We have a right to protect citizens from something that is dangerous. If you want to own women like cattle I suggest you come on back up here to Arizona and Utah. They don't care one whit.

Barbara offered to “trade” another child for the one in CPS custody because, like most FLDS members, she doesn’t understand that people are not interchangeable units to be used for bartering purposes. I suppose she just thought her children could be “reassigned” again with no harm done.

You can try to downplay my own firsthand experience with the victims up here all you want. It doesn't change what I've seen or what I've learned at all.

They've picked the wrong state to move to in order to break laws.

GOD BLESS TEXAS

Oh no KD....not the FLDS apologists again, throw in a few more labels and buzz words. How about sympothizers or allies or are those words too passive.

I am so glad to know that the chinese were first to define a polygamist arrangement with such accuracy. We can add concubine to the list of chinese firsts like gunpowder and wonton soup.

I feel sorry for the poor guys trying to support their harems but hey, those guys are the ones with the problem of providing enough cotten for all those dresses......not me.

I guess we can add two more states to the list of corrupt government entities trying to tell their citizens how to live.

BTW just how are the book sales doing in the Salt Lake area these days KD.....and how many skeletons have been found in the desert lately.

Details of the "kid swap" are a bit scarce but heck.....perhaps a sister wanted to relieve the pain of Merriann. We have a desperate mother trying to save her kid...that is the sad part here.

KD I believe that you have been talking with the book peddlers too long. In the same way extremist religious groups use the bible to twist the message the book peddlers and ex-members ply their profitable tales to get an audience.
Take a vacation KD. Get in the car and visit DisneyLand. At least Disneyland is a place that advertizes fantasy on the front gate and you can reenter reality when the ride is over.

So far Texas is looking at the reality of a $30million bill and has 291 innocent children and parents to apologize to. How much of that bill should be sent to Carolyn and Flora?

Yep DK looks like Tony Alamo can't afford a 1700 acre compound and has to make due with a little 15 acre one.
I guess with all the tanks in Iraq the feds had to use cars. I hear Texas offered their tank and swat teams since they have the experience but the feds didn't see the need for bad publicity.
The kids are being "interviewed" but it looks like the 5th circuit got someones attention and they are leaving Voss at home to finish cleaning her glasses.
But hey.....we at least have a few polygamy accusations sprinkled in the report just to keep the pervert patrol happy.

I wonder if ole Tony has a few women capable of mixing together a good pie? I think the FBI might appreciate some sweets with their coffee.

>>>>Look we all know you guys are FLDS apologists.<<<<<

I do like that buzz phrase, though tired. It also shows you listen to Air America and that you have no other talking points the CPS gave you.

How do I know you listen to Air America? With this phrase:
>>>>The UN knows polygamy is dangerous for women and children and so does the U.S. <<<<
Why else would you include the blue helmets (see I can use buzz phrases too)? The self-same blue helmets that Obama wants to $845 billion to (2/15/08) to help fight global poverty? The same UN whose ground forces in Africa on the Ivory coast consistantly abuse six year olds(5/27/08)? The same UN the caused Marvel to Kill Captain America so that Marvel could have Spiderman as a spokesman (okay that might not be true, but spiderman is the spokesman for the UN) (1/2/08)? Would you like me to go on? As for the United States? Who knows, we'll let the Supreme Court decide on that when it comes up to them. By the way, I am part of the US I don't know about the rest of the world and I don't care if you speak for the UN, but I, me, my family are Americans and therefore part of the US, and I abhor the fact that you speak for me and mine. You are not an elected official, I don't really know what you are except someone who uses sweeping generalities and buzz phrases and words.

Oh, we don't downplay your firsthand experience at all, we just don't believe you. Your world view is tainted BLUE, as have shown. Oh yeah, did you know the UN almost passed a resolution that would outlaw Christians?

Oh and Gretchen you have your initials wrong. The FLDS doesn't hate other races other than white, that's the KKK. I can see where you would be confused though, the KKK wear sheets with a cross on them, while the FLDS only wear white shirts and underwear presumably (we can check with kd on that one with her firsthand knowledge though).

Oh, and I agree with you kd, God Bless Texas, with the attitudes the CPS and the judicial system has shown, Texas needs a blessing.

DK

DK, in your haste to tar everyone who is not willing to overlook many willful decisions to break the law you are doing more harm than good. I believe that the majority of America is unwilling to legalize Polygamy and Bigamy for several very good reasons. First and foremost, it really isn't good for women and children. There are studies which show that female initiated polygamy has few or no negative connotations for women and children, but male driven polygamy does. Polygamy in a closed, patriarchial society actually provides a fertile breeding ground for physical and sexual abuse. I believe, although I will admit that I have no hard evidence, that there is a frightening amount of physical and sexual abuse going on within the FLDS. I will admit that there is likely to be less at the YFZ, but give it time. Why do I believe this? Because the doctor, who is under oath and obligation to report domestic violence and underaged births, ignores his obligation before the law. (This, by the way, is something that makes me livid. It is an example of the fundamental dishonesty of this group. Barlow, by being certified to practice in Texas, agreed to obey the laws and guidelines of Texas and the Medical Board of Texas. The fact that he apparently felt his religion allowed and approved him lying about his willingness to follow those laws and guidelines throws the veracity of the entire FLDS group into question. Clearly they feel no obligation to deal honestly with "gentiles".) Because these women and children have no recourse to outside oversight, the men are free to do as they will. The religion declares that if the women do not obey the men, then they are sinning and doomed to hell. Heck, even the sealing of Marianne, whether a chaste betrothal or not, is child abuse. Why? Because the FLDS claim that there is no force involved in their marriages, and yet they've committed this child to an eternity (if their view of heaven is correct) with Jeffs. What happens if she decides somewhere down the line that they made a mistake? What is she supposed to do if Jeffs should turn out to be abusive to her or her children. (That's possible of any human being, prophet or not.) How can she honestly have made a "choice", an eternally binding choice, by the way, at the age of 12? The hypocrisy here is staggering. The FLDS is crying and screaming that they're being religiously persecuted because the state of Texas won't let them break the law. Once again, and I'll use small words for you; your right to practice your religion ENDS when you BREAK THE LAW! It's not that hard. Frankly, most people wouldn't care about the practice of polygamy, as long as the little girls were left out of it. FLDS and Barbara Jessop have nothing to cry about. They would have been left alone if they'd only left the little girls alone. They didn't, they're paying the price.

It's a shame this woman can't get her act together but at the same time I don't trust CPS or anything they say. I believe CPS would distort the truth and put as many barriers as possible in front of the mother if it provided justification to terminate the parents' rights. I firmly believe CPS just wants to take this little girl and will do what ever it takes to accomplish their goal. CPS has to show some major accomplishment in this case to justify their heavy handed handling of this entire case. If CPS can't show some "major court actions/judgements" against the FLDS it will show that CPS over reacted. I believe CPS will do anything to save face.

Although the report states that a petition to terminate Jessop's parental rights has been filed, Crimmins said the report was mistaken, and that family reunification remains CPS' goal in the case.

The above extract from the acticle says it all. I think CPS will say or do anything to further its actions. I think the last thing CPS wants is to let this little girl return home. They want to keep her in foster care and evidently reap their rewards for putting her up for adoption. I will never trust anything anyone from CPS says.

Has it not touched any of you haters that one of Barbara's daughter probably volunteered to replace Merriane? What a noble child, to want to relieve the suffering of her sister and mother. Very innocent to believe it could be done, it does touch the heart though. No, I do not believe for a minute Barbara forced her.
As to the many phone calls, were they from or to Barbara? What homesick child would not take every opportunity to call her mother? Or what mother longing for her child.

Spredbury,
The odds of Marianne either being put up for adoption or being adopted are slim to none. She is not a two year old but a fourteen year old. She has a lot to say in whether or not someone would even be able to adopt her, and I seriously doubt she would consider that an option. I don't blindly trust CPS, but your assertion that they're simply determined to sunder this family or to make Marianne a justification for the the initial removal of the children is sloppy logic. You are ignoring the basic issue. Barbara Jessop has a record of marrying off her daughters when they are underage. Her sons have married underage girls. She has proven through her actions with 5 of her older children that she has no interest in or intention of following the law of the land. She has also refused to do anything to show a willingness to work with CPS towards Marianne's safety. Has she signed a safety plan? Has she made herself available for a psychiatric review? Has she attended a parenting class? Whether it's justified or not complying with the CPS demands would go a long way towards indicating that she really is interested in getting her daughter back. Instead she lies about following the rules for monitored phone calls (and that is a standard requirement when a child is in foster care), she refuses to comply with even the smallest of CPS requests, and she journals the entire event so that she can try to claim that CPS is the one causing trauma to her daughter. She did nothing to prepare Marianne to go into foster care. When my son and daughter were 14 they would have handled a situation like that quite well, and I would have been encouraging them to be strong and look for the best in the situation. When they were 8 years old they could have handled a separation from me better than Marianne seemed to. Barbara has placed Marianne on a crucifix for the FLDS cause and she continues to make a spectacle of her daughter rather than protecting her. (Check out the Truth Will Prevail where she posted her daughter's letter to her.) I can understand your reservations about CPS, but try to take a look at the other side of things. Barbara has lied and continues to lie. She has flouted every concession made to her, like the permission for two children to visit but not for the others she brought, and she has shown a very tragic lack of empathy and respect for her daughter. CPS is doing the right thing with Marianne.

I for one would like to see the affidavit filed with the court.
I think its GREAT They arrested Tony Alamo, the pervert!!! MEN start all kinds of cults under the guise of "religion". I say arrest them ALL!!!

Legally Merrianne couldnt decide to marry anyone at 12yrs old, so whose responsible? The parents!
Teresa Jeffs at 14 couldnt legally marry according to Texas law. Neither girl or the others married, legally couldnt marry, much less commit bigamy, so where does accountability lie, with their parents!
Merrianne is right where she needs to be for now.

"I think its GREAT They arrested Tony Alamo, the pervert!!!"--Hannah

------------

They didn't arrest anyone except six children. As usual, the state goes after those without any constitutional rights. Nor is there any sign they found any porno. Probably they got a call from Rozita.

JulieW is right, Alamo hasn't been arrested yet. I don't think you can say that the children have been "arrested" however. If they've been having sex under orders of their religious leader then they are now in protective custody. It never fails to amaze me that anyone would find that offensive. Since when is it a bad thing to protect children from lustful men? Newsflash folks, puberty is NOT the age of consent under any law in this land. If you want to practice a religion that says it is, move to a country where it's legal. (Or you could try to change the laws in this one, but I wouldn't hold out too much hope for that.)

Hannah, if you would like an easy access to copies of court documents relating to this case online go to www.childbrides.org and click on the current events link at the top of the page. If the documents aren't up yet they will be soon. They're found by scrolling down through the news stories to the very bottom of the page. There's some very enlightening stuff in those affidavits.

Dont worry Mr Julie, He will be arrested.

Julie, this isnt the first time Tony Alamo has served time.
Looks like he will do it again.

Noone legaly married Hannah. Jeffs performed a "spiritual union"
The issue is whether or not the girls slept with the guy.

Oh good zxc, so when Merrianne becomes 18 she can marry whoever she wants, like someone her own age.,, Whew!! thanks for clarifying that.

"That raid in Texas was precipitated by misinformation; it was precipitated by a buildup of prejudice," Parker said. "It didn't just happen because they got this phony phone call and went in there. There was a whole lot of prejudice that was built up there, partly about fundamentalists and polygamy."

Shurtleff agreed that Texas had gone too far and was critical of Texas' original theory that a little girl born in a polygamous household was at risk of growing up to become a child bride.

Darn sports fans...now the Utah AG thinks Texas overreacted. Nice to see that the guy that helped Hildebrand write the law that was used to entrap these people has seen the light.
I guess with the SCOTEX and 5th circuit rulings, pregnant adult "teens" and 291 freed children he had a change of heart.
Lets' all say whoops ......and ask for a do over just like the prosecution lawyers......

Rebecca, I agree the mother has not done her part to assist in the resolution of this fiasco but I wonder how well I would have knuckled under to CPS if I were in a situation like this. I think I might have been a bit combative and resistive to the demands of CPS especially if I felt I were being targeted. There were so many people unnecssarily hurt by the actions of CPS. I’m sure there are many good things done by CPS and I’m sure there are many good people working for CPS who really care for the well being of children. But, because this entire case was so mismanaged from the get go I will never trust anything CPS does or says related to the FLDS or any other child custody case. Voss, Meisner and many, many others should and must be held to account for what I think were unforgivable errors in how they handled this case and treated the women and children of the FLDS. The way CPS handled this case must go down in the history and text books as an example of how NOT to “HELP” children.

Spredbury, I'm not trying to say that CPS is perfect. Unfortunately it's only as good as the people in it. They're generally underpaid and overworked and so most of them are either control freaks or burned out. However, in Marianne's case it's pretty clear cut. Barbara and Merril are willing to marry off their girls long before they're of age to consent. They are not good parents in any sense of the word. I don't know what other reasons for this there might be, from believing that they are saving Marianne's soul to Barbara maybe having a brain tumor that affects her judgement, but the reasons are immaterial. What's important is that Marianne has a chance to learn to think for herself. If she takes that chance and goes of to live with a man 40 years older than her who has dozens of wives, well that will be her choice when she's of age.

zxcvbnm, has it ever occured to you that the prejudice is valid and based on people's interactions with the FLDS? I like the way we're supposed to ignore the fact that Marianne was married to Jeffs when she was 12 years old because Shurtleff has decided that CPS overstepped by taking every child on the compound. The truth is that the children wouldn't have been nearly as "traumatized" if their parents didn't teach them that everyone in the outside world is evil and bound for hell. FLDS has a part to play in this too, don't forget. Each and every person on that compound is just as responsible for what happened as the CPS people and the Sherrifs and others. They choose to be secretive, self-righteous, and most of all, to ignore blatant violations of the law. Prejudice against 12 year old girls getting married and 14 year old girls giving birth to the children of 50 year old men is a darn fine thing in my book.

Redecca....not a single person on this board has ever condoned the under age sex that MAY have occured on that ranch.
Look at the ceremonies themselves.....they happened two years ago when Jeffs was on the run. The guy would pop in for a few days.....hold a ceremony in the middle of the night then hit the road. Proving that a vast number of people knew something is a stretch and the stretch must be undertaken by LE within the law.
Rumor and gossip fueled the CPS and even the testimony against Barbara was given by ex-members that have NEVER set foot on that ranch either before during or after the ceremony.

The raid was a fiasco and the "evidence" is so tainted by the nature of its' retrivial that in the long run it will be thrown out and those that may have needed SAVEING will be even more steadfast in their beliefs.

Tanks and troops were overkill......herding children like cattle was overkill and 30 million spent to keep a girl away from a man in jail is a farce.

The law are supposed to be the good guys....not a bunch of bumbling CPS bozos on a mission to save the world from a man in jail.
Under paid and overworked is a great excuse for some kid washing dishes in a diner but it doesn't fly when 296 innocent mothers and children were treated like prisoners by the very agency that protects children. Get it right or at least close to right when people are involved...but don't pass this off as one giant WHOOPS.
BTW...prejudice is NEVER valid in applying the law. Legally gathered facts and blind justice is the standard. Do it right or don't do it at all.....that is their job.

Ahhh,

Finally a real debate without name calling and buzzwords.

Rebecca, it was a pleasure to read.

Just keep in mind, what most of us are arguing is the blatant disregard for civil rights and the heavy-handed tactic the CPS seems to favor regarding the FLDS and their children. Not to mention that this action seems to make the CPS and Texas (by association) an orchestrated action to remove an undesirable religion. And fankly that scares the heck out of most of us who doesn't subscribe to the particular religion that the CPS (and some of the others on this board) seems to represent.

None of us are condoning the abuse of minors, we are only concern with our religious freedom. IF there is evidence gained legally then bring charges against anyone, but to accuse a whole community based on a bogus phone call... We are also waiting for the investigative proceedings we were promised against CPS, but so far have not seen any action. Once again this smells of a conspiracy.

I believe that Texas and CPS should get all their I's dotted and T's crossed before they proceed any further against the FLDS. Once their house is in order then perhaps those of concerned will believe the findings, until then... We find the whole thing a 30 million dollar face-saving sham.

DK

ZXC they have the marriage certificate of Teresa Jeffs to Raymond Jessop, as Im sure they have the Marriage certificate of Merrianne to warren jeffs.
Perhaps some of you still dont realize, You can have religious beleifs of whatever you chose, but if your practice of those beleifs break the law, you will be held accountable.
The SCOTUS has made this clear as recently as Barlow vs SCOTUS, Tom Green vs SCOTUS, Holm vs SCOTUS, all were Rejected by SCOTUS.
Bigamy is against the law in the state of Texas.

zxc and what makes you think that marriages werent held by Merrill Jessop, after warren was incarerated???
Merrill is bishop of the ranch. All warren had to do was get a letter from warren saying some girl was to be married to some old fart. And the marriage would be performed.

So lets look at the sex.........where?

Two pregnant Teens that were 18 and 37 and CPS took their children after declareing them to be adults.........duh.

Ceremonies with no proof of consumation by the men involved in the ceremony.

Malonis and her 17 year old pregnant client that CPS eventually admitted wasn't pregnant and to this day the girl declares her virginity to the world.
Bigamy charges based on a law like no other designed to convict persons with no marraige documents.
The main person suspected of kinda sorta maybe perhaps having more than a kiss with a teen sits in prison for performing a religious ceremony.
Bunk..........a bunch of wide eyed girls with a crush on their version of a pop star and wanting to show their love is not illegal.
The diaries are full of desire.....not proof of an act.
So we can all sit back and wait for a few more months for the State to do what it should have done defore they desecrated a church and stormed thru doors......and then wait a few years as the courts throw out the alleged proof of a kiss.

zxc, to bad you havent seen all the pictures of the diaries entries. oh well

this is from the decsion of Reynolds Vs United States.
element into criminal law. Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices. Suppose one believed that human sacrifices were a necessary part of religious worship, would it be seriously contended that the civil government under which he lived could not interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a wife religiously believed it was her duty to burn herself upon the funeral pile of her dead husband, would it be beyond the power of the civil government to prevent her carrying her belief into practice?

So here, as a law of the organization of society under the exclusive dominion of the United States, it is provided that plural marriages shall not be allowed. Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? The permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances....

Oh Hannah.I have seen every diary entry that has been posted on this site.......no act, only desire.
There are no "spiritual Union" papers filed in any courthouse in this country. These men have ONE legal wife.
The SCOTUS decision in Reynolds refered to polygamy being an African and Mid Eastern practiced tradition and not a European practice.
Try that argument in the 21st century....europeans not practicing non european customs won't fly in our multicultural society.
We aren't talking about sacrificing virgins or other pagan practices....we are talking about a practice by a Christian religious group in the 21st century.
Scalia has already suggested that polygamy and bigamy statutes don't fly when tested in the modern era against the consent ruleings......
Why not bring up the anti gay laws of the 19th century while you are at it....they no longer apply either.

I doubt that zxc! I just waiting for some polygmaist to take this to the Supreme Court again! To see it Shot down,, Again!!
Your right this is the 21st century, so Flds needs to come up to this century and quit living in a make beleive world.
They want to practice polygamy, they can go to a country where it isnt against the law.

zxc,, which states are gay marriages legal? California only as far as I know.
Lawrenece vs Texas didnt pass any gay marriage laws, it just said Sex between ADULTS wasnt wrong.
I dont think SCOT would say sex or marriage, or sexual contact was Okay between adult and child.

zx, Barlow has admitted to delivering children to underaged girls. That's why he has charges against him for failure to report suspected child abuse. Jeffs has underaged wives who gave birth WHILE underaged. It's in the records recovered at the YFZ ranch. Why do you think Warren's lawyers are fighting so hard to have the evidence recovered declared inadmissable? With it Warren will be convicted of so many sex and child abuse crimes he'll probably never see the light of day again. Sex with underaged girls is a fact, proven by FLDS records and by the confession of FLDS people.

Oh, and just to clarify, I agree that the overkill of the removal of all children is regretable and should not be repeated. However, I stoutly maintain that the FLDS shoulder a sustantial measure of blame too. Their custom of not wanting or allowing outside contact makes the members' interactions with officials, particularly the women and children, seem stilted and suspicious. I can completely understand CPS making an error in thinking that these women needed to be removed from their men in order to finally hear some truth from them. If the FLDS truly wants to be allowed to practice their religion in peace I think it would be a good idea for them to come up with a community relations plan and, of course, start obeying the law with underaged marriages. The fact is that I don't really care if an 18 year old woman chooses to marry a 50 year old man, even if he does have three dozen wives. What goes on in the home, between consenting adults, is none of my business. I agree in respecting civil rights as well. However, there's the issue of just HOW CPS was supposed to investigate what was happening on the compound. There is no evidence that they would have been allowed free access and plenty of evidence that they would have been denied access. The doctor, the one who agreed to abide by the reporting regulations of the Texas Medical Board, admitted that he didn't do so. How, pray tell, was our government supposed to actually do their job of protecting children from a secretive, enclosed and deceptive group of people? When you come up with an answer I suggest you send it to CPS, the AG, the local law enforcement and the Governor of Texas. I'll be happy to endorse it (not that they'd care because I don't live in Texas). I am confident that the majority of the officials involved in this affair were sincerly trying to do their best. I'm sure that there were a few who abused their power. It's promising that the officials now are willing to admit (at least some of them) that they didn't handle it well. This bodes well for improved responses to similar situations down the line.

>>>which states are gay marriages legal? California only as far as I know.<<<
MASS, Vermont(?), Oregon and couple of others.

DK

>>> Why do you think Warren's lawyers are fighting so hard to have the evidence recovered declared inadmissable?<<<<

Because that is what good defense attornies do.

DK

Yes, DK, they do but would they bother if it wasn't damning? I doubt it. Warren will be convicted by his own words, which I consider a sweet irony. I'm praying that God makes sure His will is known by the outcome of this whole affair, to the FLDS and to the rest of the world. I don't think the attornies will get the evidence thrown out.

>>>HOW CPS was supposed to investigate what was happening on the compound.<<<

It's called old fashioned mundane police work and by following the law. Not by a hoax 911 call that people knew to be a hoax, which by the was smells of entrapment. There, I bet you won't endorse that much less pass that on.

Closed society or not this is the United States of America, Not the United Socialsts of America (at least not till January).

Small words for hannah. Unless there is a state seal on whatever certificates there are they're not legal in a court of law. Otherwise many 16 year olds would be 21 according to their driver licenses they can print on their computers.

Now, tell me, was the tank really necessary? Was the statement from the CPS worker saying she was scared because of men all around really admissable in court, if so why is she a CPS worker?

I am not tarring people who stand for the law, I am tarring people who have tried, convicted and bought the rope for the lynching before a trial has occured. I am tarring the gestapo-like tactics of the state of TX and CPS. I am tarring walthers because she refuses to turn this case over to someone who isn't biased (her statement saying the h